Sanchi Chhabra is a Delhi based lawyer who has handled Criminal, Labour and PoSH matters for industry giants. She is an advocate of interdisciplinarity who is exploring behavioural sciences so as to intertwine them with law. She has recently founded Mentorology, a pro bono initiative which aims at connecting law students with legal experts who mentor the former through their law school journey and induction into the profession.
She is also a mental health crusader, trying to use her experiences to make a difference. Having led campaigns for promotion of menstrual hygiene among women and children in the slums in and around Delhi, she has been an active volunteer with NGOs like Umeed and Robin Hood Army. She is an avid reader, enjoys Urdu poetry and is also an amateur writer. Anubhuti Bhusari talks with her:
1.Ma’am, the legal profession is filled with ups and downs. There’s a lot of struggle that’s involved and being a women it’s even more hard. What do you think about women lawyers, judges and how can one increase their participation and bring about equal opportunities for them?
Sure, Thank you for giving me this opportunity and considering me worthy enough.
We have to agree that the present condition is better than before. The legal process for women has become more conducive comparatively to what it was in the past. But there still is a long way to go and we still find a lot of bias in trial courts and certain High Courts. Certain fields are still considered male-dominated, for ex. Criminal Law and the bias is not just among lawyers but also from judges. Of course it is not with everyone, we have a lot of progressive judges as well but a lot of times we see that they look at us as women in a different manner and our arguments in a different manner than they would if a male advocate was appearing. The bias is very subtle that is how our arguments are perceived but yes it does exists and is not something that can be ignored. But at the same time we are able to identify it.
However, the only way I feel we can counter this is, if more and more women participate and us knowing what our rights are and also setting boundaries for ourselves and what is something that is right for us and what is not and if we stick to it then yes that’s how one can go about. But at the same time, I also feel the young generation that is us are also a part of the problem. We see people who have gone with us in school also projecting this bias. So, it depends on a lot of parameters like the way you are brought up, which school you went to because that plays a big role too in our lives and even our parents how they have brought you up or how you have grown up. So it is all very subjective, you cannot deduce on one parameter that there’s bias because of it. I think we are also responsible for it.
Now, why I am saying that we are a part of the problem because while growing up we as girls and even boys are told not to cry because they are supposed to man up and face their problems whereas it is okay for girls to cry and that is what we have been taught.Then, we are told that our brothers are their to protect you, then after that our husbands are their to protect us or if you have a problem why don’t you talk to your father about it rather than dealing it on your own. Then, we have these abuses that are so derogatory and that objectify women that we use in our day to day life, even some women use it. So that is what I am saying it is a part of the problem, then the music that we listen to and the movies that we watch, all of it has so much of objectification. And we seem to normalising it in our daily conversation that we have even at workplaces and even with our friends.We as women have been normalising it a lot of time and we are scared that we going to be called not being a sport come or to take as a joke. But a sexist comment is not a joke. So that is that how you become part of the problem if you choose to laugh about it and if you choose not to call that out.
- Ma’am, we have seen that you have worked for famous law firms, lifestyle companies and so on. But you’ve gained an inclination towards the field of psychology. What do you think is the role of psychology in law and how does it help you to understand the thinking of a criminal?
Alright. So, psychology is something that I have always been interested in since I was a child but I could not pursue it. So, as soon as the lockdown began and I had some extra time on me, I signed up for a few courses and started learning something that I put on a backburner since I started to work and as far as law is concerned I would say the knowledge of behavioural Sciences can make you better in a lot of things like be it dealing with clients or if there is a client who is aggrieved by a particular thing then how do you pacify him, how do you deal with him and later on and see if he is the accused then how to handle that.Also, how to deal with your colleagues whether it is a junior or senior. So I have seen that learning psychology always helps and also when I’m dealing with the court staff how do you get work done from them.
It has a lot to do with behavioural sciences and the study of human behaviour which I was interested in anyway,so I thought why not use it so I can intertwine the two because they are both that is social science and behavioural science similar in nature. And about the effect on about getting to know criminal psychology, I believe criminal psychology is a very evolved field of study and it looks up the how and why of a crime like what factors led to a person to commit an offence or what turned him into somebody who would go ahead or grow up to be a criminal.It is a proper field of study which I would not be the best person to comment upon it as I do not have in-depth knowledge of it but yes I am starting to gain more and more knowledge about it.
- Ma’am, the current pandemic has made a lot of people’s lives frozen. A lot of people’s mental health has got affected due to this. There’s a constant need to be productive and a lot of time that leads to a lot of over-thinking and negativity. Being a mental health activist, how do you think one can overcome that? Moreover how do you think a student can get through that and how do you think the whole stigma associated with mental health can be eliminated from the society ?
That is a great question and super relevant in the current time. So, we are living in a competitive world and we all go through ups and downs in our personal lives which may or may not be triggered by any external circumstances and that is what people don’t really understand, you could be depressed and it could have nothing absolutely nothing to do with your outside world, you could have all the money in the world, you could have a loving family you could have everything and you could still be sad because it’s all in your mind.So it makes it all the more important to nourish your health that is both physical and mental especially the time that we’re going through these unprecedented time which have turned the world upside down for all of us. But at the same time, it is a very cool to go to the gym but not go for therapy.
We need to slowly move away from that stigma and move towards caring for ourselves.Rather than getting into that cycle of trying to blame ourselves and trying to think about what other people will think if we reach for outside help ifs something is troubling you. So mental health needs as much nourishment as your physical health does and once you have a strong foundation where you know when to put a stop on your negative thinking.So, how do you think you have these negative thoughts, you start to think negative it mostly comes from over analysing situations and you think in what situations that way beyond out of luck in your control you have absolutely no control over them. Be it at your personal life or your professional life which still trouble you a lot because you keep thinking about them and keep analysing situations that you can not physically do nothing about.
So, I would say what helps me deal with them that is my negative thoughts or the times when I feel low I detach myself from it and I think of it as something that you know that it is somebody else’s problem and I have to advise that particular person that is if your friend is coming and is asking you for advice of you know your problem that he’s going through in his life and I have to suggest him how to move out of it. So, if you think that way you always give out great advice but when it comes to us we seldom are able to solve it. This might sound childish but yes it does help.
The other thing what I would do is write it down so if you start to write whatever is going in your mind it will help you bring a lot more clarity. So if you keep thinking about your problem it becomes like a huge mess inside yourself and your mind.So when you pen it down and column it yourself you start to think more clearly and solutions start to emerge from them so that is something that we should do. When you write it down, it helps to declutter and that is what we are aiming for here.
- Ma’am, being a young and a first generation lawyer, is it tough to make a name for yourself in the legal industry if you don’t have a legal background. Have you had to face any obstacles being young in this industry? What all challenges had to you go through?
Well, yes I am a first generation lawyer with absolutely no one in my family who’s into this profession, for that matter even in my extended family. So, also law school was really difficult as I had no one to guide me or any mentor as I couldn’t rely on my professors for everything that I was going through and for that matter every choice that I had to make. So, I was all on myself and I was sort of put in a pool where you have to swim through all on your own and you don’t have anyone to take you from one point to another. But I am fortunate that as soon as I graduated I started working with the law firm where I had interned before so that transition from being an intern to an associate was smooth for me. As well as my colleagues and seniors who have been extremely supportive and I sometimes feel blessed to have gotten the opportunities that I have and all thanks to the seniors of my law firm.
However, I have faced my share of difficulties while in law school and while I was looking for internships for that matter as this one that I got was purely on merit and I had to follow up a lot of times but again I had built a good rapport with them in the first time and I think I interned their after my second job so I did have a good rapport with them and they liked my work and also rewarded me for my research.So it was good for me back then that I was given an opportunity to work with them and begin my journey being a first generation lawyer and having absolutely no connections in the industry. We often hear stories about students not getting internship unless they have connections or they someone they know but I would say that I was fortunate enough to get these opportunities.All these opportunities helped me to learn a lot including being responsible about something that I was entrusted with and I also learnt how to independently take such high stake matters because my seniors would show their trust in me and the give me the the chance to prove myself. I would say for a student it is really important to have a mentor as something that is I will always regret not being able to have during law school, regarding internships.
As a woman, working for such long hours and my parents being okay with it was hard initially, but then parents eventually change themselves and start to accept the changes as well and putting upwith long hours as well because if we are being productive then I think there’s nothing wrong if you can balance things out i.e. to work extra hours. And yes definitely, the connections that I had made was during the internships, I did not know anyone prior to this nor did my parents know anyone for that matter. And I was not doing this because I was scared to loose out on that opportunity, I was doing it because I was given that responsibility and I loved the work I was given.
- Ma’am, India still has a lot of patriarchy in the country. In the recent judgment of Justice Krishna Dixit, there were patriarchal remarks made by the judge. When we see a member of the legal system with such a mindset, how hard does it get to fight the patriarchy we’re living in? How do you think one can defeat that?
See, like I said we are all a part of the problem and India as a nation have patriarchy and a culture of bias deeply entrenched in its roots and it’s not just a judge to blame who passed this judgement to blame but the entire society. Like I said earlier, it includes ourselves as well to be brought up in the culture that reeks of misogyny and objectification and we are as much a problem as the judge probably is and the only way to fight this is on an individual level.So, you and I as individuals need to put a stop on normalising to stop the sexism that we face on a daily basis.This can be the conversations with a friend or colleague our parents.So only when we ourselves stop being a part of that will we be able to bring a change around ourselves.So if you as individuals start to call things out that is on the face of it be it sexist comments or objectification and telling somebody who’s doing it that it projecting bias and conditioning us in a certain way. I think that will help to bring about a change because we have to be very practical at the same time as we cannot change every person out there.
We cannot expect the judges who are sitting there to change of course it is very unfortunate that people have those kind of mindsets and they are sitting on the position that is very influential and their decisions have an adverse effect on a lot of people. Forex. law students who go through such judgements and who read the news and are active around. But at the same time it’s not something that you as an individual do that’s too far fetched but at least the three people or the four people that we meet, if we were able to win a change within ourselves maybe within our family or within an extended family or the group of friends we hangout with that shall go a long way.
- Ma’am, sexual harassment at workplace is a genuine problem in the country. A lot of women are objectified and looked as an object to fulfil desires by their seniors and in turn are offered good positions in the company. To the women who don’t have a strong back and face these issues, what do you advice to these victims and how do you think they can muster up the courage to take a stand against this when they might have certain financial responsibilities in the family?
See, again this is very subjective. So what I will suggest is that you should be able to set boundaries for your own selves and see what is right and what is acceptable and what is not acceptable.If there is a senior who is actually explicitly indicating to you that you as an employer have been hired because of your sexual value and not because of your skills, in that case it is clearly sexual harassment and nothing else.Most of the times the perpetrators, seniors or other recruiter who is doing this is not even aware because they are in this bubble of entitlement where I would say they are very morally disengaged that they would not even realise that is making you feel uncomfortable or they try to belittle you as a human being because they think that they deserve you it being in the dominant position.They feel that deserve sexual favours from you if you are their junior or if you’ve been hired. They feel that you are obliged to take it, so the first thing that you can do is make it very very evident and call it out their in then and let that person know that this is something that is making you as an individual very uncomfortable and it is something that is not acceptable at all not just to you but to anyone in general. So that is something very important that you are able to put it across.
Of course, if it is physical harassment or can it it is aggravated enough to include violence then it is a different story then it is a crime.But if it’s verbally or if it’s through his conduct towards you first and foremost make it clear that this is something that is not acceptable and if that still does not deter him or her , as it could be women doing it too then you should definitely go ahead and file a complaint with the internal committee of your firm which is what comes under the PoSH law and it is mandatory under the PoSH law.If your company does not have such committee then you should approach TLC which is local committee at the district level. Again mandated by the PoSH law and if it includes physical harassment or violence, you of course have penal provisions for it.Also a lot of women think that they might lose out on an opportunity and they are scared enough to not call it out so that’s the moral choices that you’ll have to make as an individual and nobody else can do it for you.A lot of women I would say leave their organisations and join somewhere else to escape the stigma that comes with it that is people start indulging in gossips and then start talking behind your back that you are responsible for it and probably were asking for. We have all been there.So, like I said call it out in the first place, confide with somebody else and if you are not comfortable going to the committee reach out to someone in position who could probably help you.Also, a lot of organisations have these anonymous grievance cells or redressal systems where you can post anonymously that you are facing such problems.
- Lastly, ma’am what would you advice the budding lawyers of the country?
So, I recently wrote about this about what not to do in law school so I would like to summarise that only instead I will say what you should do.So, you need to say yes to everything that comes your way, be it moot court, workshops, seminars and do whatever that is there in your college participate in everything.Get into organising events, fests help out you, this way you will get to know and learn so much more than you would sitting in a classroom.Then, don’t stick to your likes and dislikes, explore everything don’t say “I don’t like doing that I will not do it ever”because law has a lot many fields that you can come into so unless and until you explore a lot of things you will not be able to settle on one. So expand your horizons and do things that you don’t enjoy that will help you out a lot because later in life you will have to do things that you don’t enjoy so why not get into the habit early.
Also, don’t keep thinking about things that you want to do instead start doing it.Things start to fall into place and even if they don’t let them be, move on to the next one but don’t keep sitting and thinking and planning out and not executing that is not going to help. Then, I would say it’s important to have a mentor and seek out to various people and not just one person. I’d suggest try to talk to a lot of seniors who are experts in your field, you’ll find a lot of helpful people on LinkedIn. Start building your network and connections, use it to rightly engage with the right people to ask good questions and to seek out mentors. Then, I would say one thing is to spend a lot of time on Tapriwali chai because a lot of people from your college spend a lot of time there and I feel that is where the real conversation happens. Be it politics, the economy, who’s running where you know it all, so spend more time there. Indulge in great conversations that will help you out too. If possible try interning out of your hometown, I would say this will do a lot of good to you then it would when you’re staying at home. You will be working on your own that will in a way prepare you for life.
Then I’d suggest don’t keep a small group of friends, make good connections at college because these are the people that are going to be your colleagues in future so why not start building your network in the college itself so that later on you can find a lot of people to collaborate with during school and after school as well.Lastly, don’t rely on your classroom teaching a lot.Do different courses online that are available, then you could look up diploma courses that are available in different colleges so I would say don’t stick to what your colleges teach you. Don’t just study for the sake of exams and to get a degree, but focus more on the knowledge at hand.
By – Anubhuti Bhusari